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24 January 2007

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» Q and A's on how to lay a wooden floor 2 - preparations from Wood You Like F.A.Q.
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Comments

Dean Aston

Need some help. Ive just brought a solid wood floor can this be glue to chipboard? Been told i cant do this and am worried about it as i pick it up tomorrow

Karin H.

Hi Dean, welcome

We see a problem glueing a solid floor down on chipboard, none of the modern adhesives will bond with the moist repellent surface chipboard has nowadays. You'll have to install plywood or hardboard first.

For floorboards it's best to use a flexible adhesive like MAPEI P990 and for strip flooring (boards up to 100mm wide) you could use F.Ball B91 or B92 (see same webshop page)

Use a notched trowel!

Hope this helps
Wood You Like Ltd

Tom T

Hi,

I'm planning to install 20mm solid oak T&G into my kitchen. The room is 8m x 3m total size, but half is well ventilated suspended (400mm joist spacing), and the other half is concrete (30yrs old, dry).
I want to lay the boards parallel to the shorter wall, to try to give the impression of a wider room.
As luck would have it, the heights of the concrete and joists do actually match, so I don't have any making up to do there, but I'm not sure whether to:
1. Lay directly onto whats there; I would have to noggin all the joists first because they run in the 'wrong' direction. I was going to secret nail to the joists but then when I get to the concrete I suppose I'll have to glue?
2. Counter batten the entire lot and then secret nail the whole lot to these. Unfortunately though this would raise the whole floor by the batten depth (at least 20mm?), and the head height is already 'snuggish' in the concreted half of the room. Also this would give a nice trippable step coming into the room...

I realise I'll have to live with a compromise somewhere though, I just wondered what you would do if it was your place?

Cheers, Tom

Karin H.

Hi Tom, welcome

We would make sure there is one type of underfloor, using sheets of hardboard (glued to concrete, nailed to floorboards). This will also solve your problem of installing the new boards in the same direction of the old boards.
Then, depending on your preferences you could either glue the new floor to the hardboard or install floating using a foam underlayment.

Hope this helps.

Wood You Like Ltd

lee griffin

Hi, I want to lay 23 m2 of solid oak T&G flooring, the existing floor is a concrete one, with hard vinyl tiles layed down on bitumen. what would you recomend? If I take up the vinyl tiles I know it will be a real pain getting up the bitumen, but if i lay the oak floor floating, will I have problems with it coming apart?

Karin H.

Hi Lee, welcome

If the vinyl tiles are stuck down well, the underfloor fairly level and your solid Oak boards are wider than 110mm then we would install a floor in this circumstances floating on a combi-underlayment, glueing all T&G's correctly.

Hope this helps
Wood You Like Ltd

lee griffin

Hi, thanks for the quick response. Unfortunately the floor is a solid oak,18mm thick, by 83mm wide random plank length, so I assume laying it floating is a no-no. would it be possible to glue it to the existing vinyl tiles, provided they were stuck down well?

Karin H.

Hi Lee

We're afraid not. The structure of the tiles will not allow the adhesive to bond correctly. alternatively you could screw plywood ontop of it first and then glue the wood floor on to that.

Hope this helps

Wood You Like Ltd

lee griffin

Hi Karin, thankyou again. Ive decided to fetch up the existing vinyl tiles. Im either going to use elastilon strong over a DPM, or use a primer and a liquid batten such as sikabond T2. which method would you reccomend? and do I have to remove all the bitumen residue from the concrete before using a primer?
Many thanks for your patience!
Lee

Karin H.

Hi Lee

The more bitumen you remove the better it is. Using Elastion also has the advantage of tackling minor unevennesses in the underfloor, but for the rest it is personal preference what to use.

wood You Like Ltd

Lucy

I'm fixing to install a bamboo tounge & grove wooden floor over a plywood sub floor. I was going to nail it using a finishing nail gun or should I use another type of nailing system? What about drilling & then nailing? I was hoping not to have to nail every board but from reading this forum every board has to have at least 2 nails. Can the tounge & grove be glued & lay as a flooting floor? Or can the tounge & grove be glued and nail every 12"?

Lucy

Karin H.

Hi Lucy, welcome

Depends on how wide your bamboo boards are, normally around 90mm? That is to narrow to install floating, but glueing them down with parquet adhesive would be another (better?) option.

In our experience Bamboo has very tiny T&G and might splinter/break very easily when nailing them and yes, every board has to be nailed every 30 - 35 cm.

Hope this helps

Wood You Like Ltd

lucy

Thanks for the advise. The planks are 3 3/4" wide and I was going to do a floating floor because I felt that this was the easiest way and I'm doing it myself with my daughter but if you say I can't i will glue it.

Thanks again.

M Wright

Hello

I'm after some advice on the best way to install a solid oak floor.

I am fitting 120mm wide T&G oak on top of a slightly uneven plywood floor in a living room (6m x 4m) on a first floor above a bedroom and want to reduce the sound transmission to the floor below as much as I can.

After looking at other posts I was considering using fibre boards to level the existing floor and then fitting the oak flooring using the floating technique and gluing the T&G.

Would this solution work ok or can you recommend a better solution?

Thanks

John F

I am planning to install an oak floor in my bedroom. What I am worried about is the doorway. Will I, with the underlay, end up:

1. having a step between the bedroom floor and hallway floor - how can this be overcome?

2. having to saw off bottom of the door or get a new door ?

Many thanks

Karin H.

Hi M. Wright, welcome

Fibre boards should be ok to use, or you can use Timbermate Diralex (no DPM) 5mm for extra sound insulation. In our experience it reduces the sound of footfall better than the fibre boards.

Wood You Like Ltd

Karin H.

Hi John F

You could use a solid ramp threshold to protect the edge of the floorboard in the doorway which also creates a gradual step from the hallway to the bedroom.

As for your bedroom door, both options are feasible , it's down to personal preferences (or skills). A proper jig-saw and proper measuring how much should be cut off the door is not really difficult, removing old layers of paint from the hinges to remove the door out of it is mostly the biggest 'pain'

Wood You Like Ltd

John F

Many thanks for the comments.

Can I ask another question. Am trying to decide on direction for laying wood, and starting point within room. The shape of the room is like that of a bottle-stopper. I'll try and draw it

______________________________
| 4.32m |
| | 1.35m
|______ ______|
| |
| |
| | 2.03m
| |
|________________|
X 3.1m

X = doorway

Ideally I would like to lay so direction is from front to back as this seems the natural direction. The problem with this is the 1.35m dimension which is slightly larger than a standard board length requiring for the two 'alcoves' either

(a) a small piece added to a standard length or (b) wasting wood by cutting, for example, 0.7m and 0.65m lengths and butting together

where (b) overcomes any problems associated with butting up short lengths.

Is either (a) or (b) practical or with I have to resign myself to left to right board direction?

Can you suggest a starting point for laying the boards?

Many thanks (again)

John F

Whoops, my picture didn't come out, all the 'space's in it were ignored. I'll try drawing again but replacing 'space' by '.'

.......___________________________
......|...........4.32m...........|
......|...........................|1.35m
......|____...................____|
...........|.................|
...........|.................|
...........|.................|2.03m
...........|.................|
...........|_________________|
............X....3.1m

I hope this works.

John F

Bother. Still didn't work. I hope you get the idea though.

Horizontal length at top = 4.32m
Horizontal length at bottom = 3.1m
Vertical length at bottom = 2.03m
Vertical length at top = 1.03m

shaped like a bottle stopper.

Karin H.

Hi again John

As far as I can see from the drawing you plan to install from bottom line (where it says 3.1m) to top line (4.32 m) which in the alcoves gives you 'short' lengths of 1.35m.

The recommended method would be to stagger the boars, meaning starting some rows with the 'left-over' piece from the row before. This prevents a pattern of joins at the same place everywhere. It also prevents the floor becoming unstable i.e. moving on the joins as if they ware 'hinges'.
Installing that way should tackle you're alcove problem: start with an off-cut piece that comes say halfway the alcove, cut another board to size to fill in the row and use a new whole board as next row. You fill the row again with another new board, cut to size. From that left over, if another row is still needed in the alcove, cut off some more, install next to the whole board etc etc.

Hope this helps.

Wood You Like Ltd

Guy Rowland

I am planing to install a solid wood floor on concrete. Ive had to remove some old tiles which have left the concete black but dry.

I was sold Gutoid Parkett S11 adhesive and Stopgap F76 waterproof membrane with the wood. However, I havent read anywhere that its necessary to put membrane down if im glueing, do I need to? (id rather not if poss). If I do then can I put the glue directly onto the memberane?

Im also a bit concerned as I bought all this stuff 2 years ago and have just noticed that the glue and membrane has a shelf life of 12 months.

Any advice would be much appreciated as im really confused now.

Karin H.

Hi Guy, welcome

Dates on products are there for a good reason: their quality deteriorates rather quickly once they pass their 'use-by' date. Bin it - ecofriendly!, is all I can say.

What is the width of your new floor boards? If wider than 100mm then the easiest and simplest option is to buy combi-underlayment, PVAC wood-glue and to install your wood floor using the floating method.

Hope this helps
Wood You Like Ltd

Guy Rowland

H Karin H

Thanks for your rapid response (on a bank holiday as well)

I thought I should probably bin it. The boards are 12cm wide, but there are a lot of short boards, maybe 25% under 50cm long (but only just, and I didnt have any problem avoiding a pattern when I laid upstairs).

Another concern is that the concrete floor is not completely level and bulges in places. What do you recommend to sort this out?

Karin H.

Hi Guy

One of our contacts wrote an atricle on preparations of the underfloor on this FAQ & News site, see here.
Especially bulges are tricky when not leveled, specially with many short lengths. The floor will see-saw all over the place. So best thing to do is making sure the concrete floor is made level.

Hope this helps

Wood You Like Ltd (not really into bank holidays anyway ;-))

Pat

Hi,

Regarding expansion gaps, given that the amount of expansion is very weather dependent, presumably if the 'standard' gap is 10mm then I'd leave this if installing the floor during a dry period mid winter, but leave very little gap (3-4mm?) if installing during a humid period in midsummer and pro-rata the gap in between? Or is there any other rule of thumb to ensure that the floor edges don't appear from under the skirting board in midwinter after I've installed in mid summer?

Thanks,

Pat.

Karin H.

Hi Pat, welcome

There is a rule of thumb indeed: with solid Oak floors it's 3mm per meter width of the room, with a minimum of 10mm.
In humid installation conditions leave at least 10mm, never narrower and install 18 - 21mm thick skirtingboards on top.
For wood-engineered boards: leave 10mm and you can use thinner skirtingboards: 15 - 18mm thick

Hope this helps

Richard Oppenheim

I am going to install a new floor, is there a proper way to lay the wood down the hall? Should it be go the length of the hall or across it . Thanks Richard

Karin H.

Hi Richard

In most cases you 'go with' the length of the hall for the most aesthetic look.

Hope this helps

Wood You Like Ltd

joanne

hi, ive just bought wooden flooring but its for an odd shaped hall an s shape, i hav no idea how to fit it. any help would do thanx do i run the strips long ways or cut the wood to the width of the room???

Karin H.

Hi Joanne, welcome

It looks best indeed when going with the length of the hall, especially when your front door faces the strips running length-ways.

Wood You Like Ltd

Ann

Hi there,
Having recently been given some extortionate quotes for laying my new solid wooden flooring I've just stumbled upon your forum whilst researching info on laying it myself and, in doing so, also stumbled on the link for 'Elastilon'. I've watched the video and it seems an incredible piece of kit. Call me sceptical but the product just seems a bit too good to be true - a bit too easy (!?) and I'm wondering why on earth anyone would still use the 'old fashioned' methods of gluing and nailing - is it JUST down to cost or are they really a more hard wearing and long lasting method of laying a solid wooden floor? Am I being too scepitcal, is it REALLY that easy to use Elastilon? And do you really get an equally well laid AND long lasting finish from it? Should I just have faith in my own abilities and go for it? I have built made to measure built-in wardrobes in our bedroom in the past so although I am a complete novice I'm a pretty logical minded one - do you think that would make me a good candidate to use Elastilon or am I watching the video through rose tinted glasses and not seeing the hidden problems? Any advice and opinion from someone who knows would be greatly appreciated. Thanks.

Karin H.

Hi Ann

I like your approach and no, you're not sceptical. When someone who is experienced in using the (good product) Elastilon they really make it look soooo easy to do yourself.
We are sure that the installers in the video had loads of trouble the first ever time he used this product. It is however a good product, specially when you want to install narrow floorboards (narrower than 100mm) and need extra insulation so glueing it down the 'old-fashion' way is a problem.

As with everything new you have to learn, it's tricky to start with. The adhesive on the Elastilon is strong and it might take a lot of fiddling to remove the protecting sheet of paper from under the first few rows without messing up the rows you just placed ontop of the sticky Elastilon.

Price is indeed another issue too, it is rather more expensive than installing foam underlayment and using bottles of PVAC wood-glue in the T&G's when you install the floor floating.

But Elastilon is a good product and already there are cheaper copy-cats around. Stay away from those!
We can't judge your abilities, but if you still like the product's features and benefits and feel you are capable enough to tackle this 'sticky' product - give it a go (and let us know the result!)

Hope this helps

Wood You Like Ltd

Ann

Thank you for that Karin, I hear what you say. A couple of questions running on from your answer though - 1) if I did mess up on the first couple of rows is that it? - just a question of 'tough, you've got a couple of messy rows to hide under a big plant pot or table or something' or can you remove them and start again? Or would it be a question of basically cutting that bit of Elastilon and wood out, replacing a new bit and starting again? And 2) Having already said that although I'm a novice I'm a pretty logical one, and whilst I appreciate it when you say that you can't judge my abilities, would you recommend that maybe one of the traditional methods would be a better (if slower!) option and if so which one - glueing, nailing, both, floating? Choices choices! The boards are solid oak, 135mm wide, 18mm thick and will be going onto good, flat, sound floorboards. What d'you reckon? Thanks so much.

Karin H.

Hi Ann

1) The latter: you'll have to remove the stuck down boards from the Elastilon again, if very unlucky cut off the Elastilon and start over.

2) With a flat, sound floorboards as underfloor and the solid Oak 135mm wide we would install this floor using the floating method. Install a 3mm foam underlayment first and glue all T&G's correctly. Once you got the hang of it it won't be any slower - we feel even quicker - than the Elastilon method. Elastilon saves time when you the alternative would be glueing the floor down completely.

One note on this, no matter what installation method you use: if your new boards will be installed in the same direction as your existing boards you'll have to hardboard or ply over the existing floorboards first.

Hope this helps

wood You Like Ltd

Ann

Thank You Karin. I'm going to read over everything you've said, muster some courage and then wade in. I'll let you know how I get on! Thanks again.

Steve Sewell

I am just about to install 12mm solid oak flooring onto 50 year old concrete floor. This floor is in good condition. I am thinking of just putting down underlay with floating floor and glueing joints. one of the rooms is about 7m long and i have around 50 square metres to put down. Any suggestions?

Karin H.

Hi Steve

If your Oak floorboards are at least 100mm wide than installing them floating would not be a problem.

Rule of thumb for expansion gaps (length of the room is almost never a problem, width is):
4 mm per meter width of the room with a minimum of 10mm.
Say your room is 4 meter wide by 7 meter long: 4 x 4 = 16mm expansion gap all around.

Hope this helps
Wood You Like Ltd

Steve Sewell

Hi Karen

Thanks for the information on the last comment. I now would like to know whether to run the 12mm oak floor length ways or width ways. ie length of wood to longest length of floor.

Karin H.

Steve, that depends on personal choice, the amount of light coming in length-ways or side-ways.

The is a rule of thumb that says: always 'go with the light', but not all situation call for that - like sometimes a conservatory.

See here too.

Hope this helps

Wood You Like Ltd

dan

hi
Am planning on laying solid t&g oak flooring by glueing the joints and laying over a 5mm thick underlay, would you say this is a suitable method thanks Dan

Karin H.

Hi Dan

Sounds like a plan. Only, what type of underfloor do you have?
Concrete needs another type of underlayment than original floorboards or chipboard.

Next question would be: how wide are your new boards? If narrower than 100mm floating is not really advised due to the many joins you will have.

So, a bit more information if you please

Wood You Like Ltd

Woodchip

Hi,

I am in the process of procuring wood for our new house.

New, as in long term project (4yrs now).

We have piped in under floor heating upstairs and downstairs.
The downstairs floor is 4" concrete and not perfectly level, so before we lay any wood, we would require to level it with a self leveling compound of some sort. Something I have no working knowledge of. Can someone suggest a good self leveling compound/screed mix that we could use for a fairly large area.
I did see something in B&Q, but have no idea how good it is, or the brand name.

Our downstairs rooms are (approx.)7.2m x 5m, 5m x4m, 5m x 3.5m & 7.2m x 4m.

The upstairs floor has 2 different types of floors. One room with concrete layed on Lewis plates 7.2m x 4m.

The rest is a biscuit system, with 22m moisture resistant chip board, with 2" x 1" strips nailed to the joists through the chip board, with underfloor heating pipes layed between the 2" x 1" strips & covered with a sand cement mix. These room sizes are (approx.) 6m x 5m, 5m x 3m + a landing 7.2m x 1.2m.

The floors as they are, have all been down for well over a year now, and finally we are at the stage where we want to lay solid wood on all these floors.

I'd rather not put down chipboard upstairs and then lay the wood on top, as I think there is enough weight on the joists already. Obviously we can nail the floor that uses the biscuit system, if need be.

We have looked at OAK some at 120mm x 18mm, and 140mm x 22mm. We have been told by some to avoid a wide plank, with underfloor heating but this minimum width seems to have grown wider over time.
The only thing that doesn't seem to have changed is the minimum moisture level of 8% in the wood.

Advice on the floors has varied some saying glue it, some saying float it.

With regard to putting down a 2mm underlay, we have been advised against it "as it tends to stop heat coming through, more than if the floor was first covered with 18mm chipboard and then had the wood layed on top of that". Wood being a poor insulator.

I did notice a comment on this site, not to lay a solid floor on underlay if the room was longer than 5m.

With all that I've been told so far, the method I would prefer, is just glueing the floor straight on to the leveled floor.

Any advice would be appreciated, as I'd rather have it layed right first time, if such a thing were possible.

Also any recommended products for doing the job as this will be the first solid floor I have layed.

thanks in advance for any useful advice

Woodchip

Karin H.

Hi Woodchip

Thank you for your story and questions. We thought it better to answer them in a completely new article:
More pointers in installing wooden floors on underfloor heating systems

Wood You Like Ltd

At 13:40 05/03/2009, you wrote:

Diane Whittaker

Hi - We've just laid a solid oak floor on the whole of our ground floor and have bought some Blanchon Hard Waxoil to treat it. I applied a coat in the lounge (easy-peasy) but the instructions on the can then say "Polish immediately after applying the product ... to give the wooden floor a uniform finish" However, immediately after applying, the waxoil was still 'wet'. Was I supposed to walk on the waxoil and polish it whilst still 'wet' or wait until it had completely dried and hardened? And if I was supposed to polish it whilst still 'wet', was I actually supposed to do, say, a one metre square section at a time, i.e. applying the waxoil and then immediately polishing, section by section?
In the event I waited for about 20 minutes and then buffed it with a cloth but by then it was very tacky and EXTREMELY hard work - my socks kept sticking to it. Fortunately (I really don't know how) but I seem to have achieved a really good finish but I'm not convinced I've done it right. Therefore before I embark on the hall and dining room I'd be very grateful for your advice.
By the way, yours is a GREAT site - I really wished we'd discovered it before we'd even laid the first plank!!

Yours hopefully,

Karin H.

Hi Diane

Thank you for your story. In fact polishing should read: buff the floor after applying a thin coat of HardWaxOil to spread it out evenly. Best is to use a buffing machine with a medium coarse pad (brown or beige). If you don't have one, a non-fluffy cloth will do. And indeed, you walk over the freshly applied oil but the buffing will remove any footsteps.

You are right in doing the floor in little sections, applying the HardWaxOil thinly, buffing it out and even spreading it over untreated areas. After you've applied it this way on to the whole floor let it dry for 8 - 10 hours and apply a second coat the same way - don't wait longer than 36 hours to apply the second coat though otherwise you have to lightly sand the floor again.

Hope this helps and good luck with the other rooms.

Kind Regards
Wood You Like

Simon P

Hi, I am hoping to lay a bamboo floor over an existing solid wood floor which is in turn laid on a concrete base (circa 1930s). I have used Elastilon previously onto concrete with great results. Will I be OK onto wood, it appears reasonable flat? Also should I run perpendicular to the old wood or in line? Thanks for the help.

Karin H.

Hi Simon

I think you are better of removing the existing solid floor and lay direct on the concrete - check if concrete is level. Otherwise you are building up height unnecessary and might trap moist between too many layers

Hope this helps

Wood You Like Ltd

At 17:19 21/08/2009, you wrote:

Bryan C

I am doing my first wood floor. Everything checks out as far as flooring tools etc. My question is where to start the flooring. The room has three walls. The open side leads into the kitchen and two of the three walls have door connecting other rooms.

My first thought it to start at the open side that leads into the kitchen. If so do I top nail the first board or use the floor nailer? I appreciate any advice!

Karin H.

Hi Bryan

Starting at the open side is a good idea. Then you are sure there is one full plank where the room starts (from the kitchen point of view). Try to avoid a joint in the middle of the opening - if possible of course.
Is there a step between the room and the kitchen? If not, make sure you leave the correct expansion gap for the first row too. Depending on the underfloor you could nail blocks of wood to a sheet material underfloor (or the existing floorboards) to act as a fixation point, which also forces you to create that important expansion gap.

If you have a different situation than I imagine please let my know and I can advice/help with other tips.

Wood You Like Ltd

At 15:10 30/09/2009, you wrote:

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